First time in English: Rare interview David Miscavige gave during Germany crisis

Our old friend, Austrian journalist Peter Reichelt, has a real treat for us today, and we want to thank him for doing the work not only to bring us a very rare David Miscavige interview that has never appeared in English before, but also to get the story behind the story.

David Miscavige took over as the ultimate leader of the Scientology movement after the January 1986 death of founder L. Ron Hubbard. In the 38 years since then, Miscavige has only given, as far as we know, four interviews to journalists.

The first was his disastrous live interview with Ted Koppel on Nightline in 1992. A few years later, he gave a more canned interview to NBC, portions of which showed up many years later in Alex Gibney’s 2015 HBO documentary, Going Clear. And in 1998, Miscavige gave a print interview to Tom Tobin at the Tampa Bay Times.

Peter let us know about the fourth, which turns out to have been Dave’s first ever print interview, in 1994 to the weekly Austrian news magazine “Profil,” which was published December 5, 1994.

Why would Dave, who has been so averse to speaking to the press, agree to an interview in a German-language Austrian weekly in 1994? Well, keep in mind that Scientology was mired in controversy then over the German government’s investigations and prohibitions against Scientologists at the time. Miscavige had struck back with an advertising campaign that claimed Scientologists were being treated like they were Jews in 1930s Germany. That only enflamed things, and so he may have figured it was time to make a public appearance.

The issue of Profil featured an investigative piece by correspondent Wolf Lotter, followed by the Miscavige interview itself.

So first, we’re going to give you the translation of the interview with Miscavige. Then, Peter spoke to Lotter to ask him about how the interview came together. Wow, this is great stuff.

Scientology – The Religion of the Greedy

Scientology leader David Miscavige on money, faith and opponents

Inside the issue there’s this editorial note…

His office in Los Angeles is hermetically sealed by security personnel, his travel plans are top secret, not even “Time” manages to get to him or even photograph him: David Miscavige, just 34 years old, leader of the “Church of Scientology” and heir to the red-haired founder Lafayette Ron Hubbard, is extremely publicity shy. He has only dared to go public once before, when he granted an interview to Ted Koppel, the anchorman of the ABC news program “Nightline.” However, controversial topics such as Scientology’s assets were not touched upon. This is what Miscavige does in the profile interview for which Wolf Lotter, 32, traveled to L.A.

In it, the Scientology boss renews his declaration of war, which he launched in a large-scale advertising campaign against the German federal government, which, after various affairs, is considering banning the sect, which is recognized as a religion in the USA. Miscavige: “I’m not a criminal and I don’t do money laundering. This is propaganda, comparable to the events in Germany in the 1930s that led to the Holocaust.”

Then, deeper inside the issue…

“Footsteps of the Nazis”

Scientology boss David Miscavige on money, faith, opponents, and his dispute with the German government.

David Miscavige, 34, head of the controversial Church of Scientology based in Hollywood since the death of Scientology founder Ron Hubbard in 1986, gave profil as the first print media an interview in which he commented on the allegations against his organization.

profil: Scientology is described as particularly powerful. How many members do you actually have?

Miscavige: Today there are around eight to ten million Scientologists worldwide. In addition, there are approximately half a million people each year who try Scientology for the first time.

What kind of religion is Scientology?

We share the dream of peace and redemption with all other world religions. But we Scientologists focus on the individual. We are based on the much older 10,000-year tradition of Buddhism. Scientology is an applied religious philosophy, something that can be used in the here and now, not just a belief system. Our founder, Ron Hubbard, left us tens of thousands of pages and 3,000 lectures explaining Scientology. To understand it, however, you have to study it.

You also believe in immortality, don’t you?

Yes, we believe that man is an immortal spiritual being whose experiences go beyond a human life and who has practically unlimited possibilities.

What is the goal of your organization, what do you actually want to achieve?

The goal of Scientology is a world without mental illness, without crime, and without war. We work towards this by focusing on the individual, because by doing so we can improve the whole world. We reach out to people who are doing well, but who wonder, “Why am I not as happy and successful as I could be?” These are people for whom Scientology is the right thing. And that also sets us apart from other groups whose attempts to help people are geared towards the mentally ill and unstable personalities.

You’re not interested in the less developed, whom you describe as mentally ill?

You can’t look at it like that. We are a new, expanding group and we still lack the means to really help all the mentally ill and confused people in the world. We believe that we will reach our goals faster if we help capable people to become even more capable now. In this way, we increase our membership, and ultimately we can help everyone else effectively with Scientology.

Critics say Scientology is all about big business.

We are recognized in the USA as a tax-exempt religious community, i.e. a non-profit organization. No individual benefits from the donations we receive. And believe me, the American tax authorities have searched us from top to bottom, and that’s after we’ve been at war with them for forty years. It was the most extensive audit of an organization in the history of this agency. If they certify our non-profit status, who can doubt that?

But Scientology undoubtedly costs people a lot of money, doesn’t it?

The people who say that are not Scientologists, but our enemies. The most important point is and remains that no one is personally enriched. Scientology is in the development phase. It costs a lot of money to establish itself: We need buildings for our churches, we have to finance materials about Scientology. And last but not least, because we are new, we have to distribute all this material. And then there’s another point: In the Catholic Church, there’s a priest at the Sunday service who is responsible for a few hundred, even a few thousand people. Here, on the other hand, a priest only looks after one Scientologist at a time, which of course costs more money. The Roman Catholic Church has had 2,000 years to accumulate wealth and still collects contributions for its upkeep.

There are people who spend up to $200,000 on Scientology in a year.

That just shows how important Scientology is to them and how much they appreciate the value of our teachings for this world!

It is said that Scientology has the equivalent of around 2 billion dollars in assets and its annual turnover is more than 500 million dollars.

No, the annual turnover is perhaps half that. We estimate the value of our real estate, in which churches and missions are housed, at approximately 3 billion dollars. That’s essentially our assets.

You are the chairman of an organization called the Religious Technology Center. What is the purpose of this organization?

To preserve the purity of religion and Scientology doctrine around the world…

…and to administer the trademarks of Scientology. Isn’t that very unusual for a religion?

The reason is this: We have to make sure that everybody in Malaysia or in Los Angeles gets the same Scientology doctrine. That has to be managed and organized. And we don’t want anything to be lost that our founder L. Ron Hubbard recorded. Christianity and many other older religions have lost a lot.

But critics say that you exert extreme control not only over your teachings, but also over your members. What happens to someone who wants to leave your organization?

Nothing! Anyone can leave Scientology when and how they want.

Are you saying that there is no harassment?

There are people who claim that. The interesting thing is that they are almost always incited by organizations that don’t like us. For example, in Hamburg we were accused of putting people under pressure. The public prosecutor investigated that. Nothing remained of the accusations.

What about criminal activities? If a Scientologist breaks the law, you say, “He’s a black sheep and has nothing to do with us.”

We oppose anyone committing crimes, whether they are a Scientologist or not. But when a Scientologist commits a crime, it’s immediately said: “Scientology is behind it.” This is very unfair; one could similarly argue that the Catholic Church is a criminal organization. After all, most people are Catholics.

Most people also watch movies. Scientology and Hollywood obviously have a very close relationship. Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Anne Archer, Priscilla and Lisa Marie Presley are Scientologists. How big is your influence on Hollywood as a result?

Many of our members are influential, but as a church we have no particular influence. We don’t just want to convert celebrities, although we do respect artists. They have an important role in society: they are role models. In this way, they are of great help in our fight against drugs and immorality.

Speaking of influence: Is Michael Jackson a Scientologist after his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley?

It is not my job to announce who is a Scientologist, but as far as Michael Jackson is concerned, I can answer to the best of my knowledge and belief: no.

Scientology is also said to have an influence on the business world. Do they infiltrate companies?

That is a classic misinterpretation. There is a Scientology organization called WISE, which stands for “World Institute of Scientology Enterprises.” The word “Scientology” appears in the name, so it is sheer nonsense to claim that we are infiltrating anyone. WISE is an organization for Scientologists who are business people, just as there are Catholic or Jewish associations in this field.

The German Minister of Labor, Norbert Blüm, has a different opinion. He has banned Scientologists from working as private employment agencies because they are not reliable enough for this sensitive activity. He also accuses them of money laundering and brainwashing and describes the leaders of Scientology as criminals.

I don’t have to put up with that! I am not a criminal and do not engage in money laundering. This is propaganda, comparable to the events in Germany in the 1930s that led to the Holocaust. Blüm should be ashamed. He is following in the footsteps of the Nazis, who were his predecessors in the history of German governments. This man has never spoken to a Scientologist.

One reason for the German government’s anti-Scientology stance is the advertising campaign you are running in the USA on the subject of Germany. Looking at these advertisements, one gets the impression that the whole of Germany is already ruled by neo-Nazis.

No, we’re not saying that. But look at what happened in Germany in the 1930s. Why did an entire nation allow itself to be incited to kill six million people in the Holocaust? Propaganda put people in this state of mind. Only propaganda, no facts! Just like here now. The German government keeps claiming that we are not a religious community. Blüm and his ilk have achieved nothing in the courts. Now they are trying to do it with insults and intensified propaganda.

So you are really claiming that the situation of Scientologists in Germany is comparable to that of the Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1930s?

Absolutely. That is one hundred percent correct. The Jews have also been accused — with the same arguments — of wanting to take over the economy.

Are you seriously saying that they are the new Jews, that they are threatened with a Holocaust?

No, because our members are not being killed yet — but we want to prevent that from happening. There are attacks against our people. For example, children are being thrown out of kindergartens, there is violence, smashed windows, bodily harm …

Incidentally, the chairman of the German Jews, Ignatz Bubis, calls these comparisons tasteless.

He simply lacks information. I invite him to come to us and look at documents that prove beyond doubt that Scientologists today are suffering the same fate as Jewish citizens in the 1930s. Let him judge when he has informed himself.

You are only 34 years old. What are your plans for the future?

I believe that we have overcome our growing pains. Religious acceptance in America is the best proof that we have entered the mainstream of society. I hope that by eliminating misunderstandings we can do the same everywhere else – in Europe, Germany and Austria.

Interview: WOLF LOTTER

Peter Reichelt talks to Wolf Lotter today about his rare interview.

Lotter: I first met [Austrian Scientologists] Kurt Weiland and Klaus Büchele in Los Angeles in early December 1994 for a long preliminary discussion. And then David Miscavige came for an interview. I immediately had the impression that I was dealing with two professional Tupperware salesmen in Weiland and Büchele, who are quite whimsical.

Reichelt: What particularly interests me is that Klaus Büchele, Kurt Weiland’s deputy, recently told me that he got such a scolding and so much trouble from him for organizing your interview with Miscavige and the result after publication that you can’t imagine. He got into a lot of trouble, shortly before the RPF. Yes, because the interview didn’t go as Miscavige, Büchele and Miscavige had imagined and promised. It went out of the Scientology control.

Lotter: Do you know the background to this scoop?

Reichelt: No, I don’t.

Lotter: In 1994, I did a big investigative story about Scientology for the news magazine PROFIL in Vienna. And then Scientology threatened to sue me and PROFIL and we had a conversation with a lawyer in Vienna who represented Scientology against me. The whole thing was very unpleasant for him. But he represented Scientology anyway. He probably needed the money. But I don’t think he really had anything to do with them, as far as I could see. But he signaled to me that there was a way to avoid a costly lawsuit against me by Scientology. I would have the opportunity to interview sect boss Miscavige in Los Angeles for PROFIL, on the condition that we agree in advance which questions may be put to him. Then things would work out.

Reichelt: And this young lawyer told you, watch out, we, Scientology, are giving you the unique opportunity to interview the boss, the big boss of the organization.

Lotter: Exactly, it was obvious that this lawyer in Vienna had already been instructed by the two leading Austrian Scientology agents Weiland and Büchele. As Austrians, both knew the then leading investigative news magazine PROFIL. And that certainly played a role. That was my impression. I had the same feeling when I first met them in Los Angeles. “Let’s take a closer look at the little guy and impress him first. We’ll show him our great “Celebrity Center”. And show him, person to person, that we’re only human.” The two of them are very likeable salespeople for a special cause.

Reichelt: And it was always just Büchele and Weiland with you?

Lotter: Yes, exactly. Those were the two of them. They were the leading acts. And then we went to the HGB building around the corner from the Celebrity Centre in Hollywood. I had someone else with me as my “buddy” so that someone could confirm everything that was going to happen. There were also two tapes playing.

Reichelt: Where did the conversation with Miscavige take place? In the HGB building on the 11th floor?

Lotter: Yes, on the 11th floor, in the large conference room at Miscavige office. PROFIL had also hired a photographer from Los Angeles to take photos of this interview. The photos of Miscavige that were later published in PROFIL were shot by this photographer upstairs on the 11th Miscavige floor. The interview lasted almost an hour. Büchele and Weiland were also there.

Reichelt: What happened after the article was published? Was there any reaction from Scientology?

Lotter: Shortly after publication, I received a “fire letter” in Vienna. From the sender: David Miscavige. With a golden letterhead, with his name on it. Written in blue. With very nasty content, full of insults against me from him. What a bad journalist and liar I am. It was very disappointing, the tirades of abuse Miscavige launched against me. Unbelievable, even today. The fact that Scientology got involved in this still amazes me today.

[Wolf Lotter]

---

Leah Remini is also appealing Judge Hammock’s ruling

Poor Judge Randolph Hammock. We told you that when we visited his courtroom in January, we really kind of liked the guy and the way he was handling Leah Remini’s lawsuit against Scientology.

But no one ended up liking the ruling he made, removing some of Leah’s defamation claims but keeping eight of her nine causes of action when Scientology filed motions to strike and anti-SLAPP motions against the suit.

First, David Miscavige bounced the guy with a peremptory challenge. Then Scientology announced it was appealing the ruling. And now Leah herself has filed a notice that she’s appealing it as well.

We’re still waiting to see arguments from both sides about what they find problematic with his ruling, and what they’re asking in their appeals. When we get that, we’ll let you know!

---

Want to help?

Please consider joining the Underground Bunker as a paid subscriber. Your $7 a month will go a long way to helping this news project stay independent, and you’ll get access to our special material for subscribers. Or, you can support the Underground Bunker with a Paypal contribution to bunkerfund@tonyortega.org, an account administered by the Bunker’s attorney, Scott Pilutik. And by request, this is our Venmo link, and for Zelle, please use (tonyo94 AT gmail). E-mail tips to tonyo94@gmail.com.

---

Thank you for reading today’s story here at Substack. For the full picture of what’s happening today in the world of Scientology, please join the conversation at tonyortega.org, where we’ve been reporting daily on David Miscavige’s cabal since 2012. There you’ll find additional stories, and our popular regular daily features:

Source Code: Actual things founder L. Ron Hubbard said on this date in history

Avast, Ye Mateys: Snapshots from Scientology’s years at sea

Overheard in the Freezone: Indie Hubbardism, one thought at a time

Past is Prologue: From this week in history at alt.religion.scientology

Random Howdy: Your daily dose of the Captain

Here’s the link to today’s post at tonyortega.org

And whatever you do, subscribe to this Substack so you get our breaking stories and daily features right to your email inbox every morning.

Paid subscribers get access to two special podcast series…

Up the Bridge: A journey through Scientology’s actual “technology”

Group Therapy: Our round table of rowdy regulars on the week’s news