“I didn’t just plant seeds, I planted trees,” she says." But did Male Staff Member climb that tree? Either way, Tammy did plant something and maybe he will look at some of the info Tammy gave him. From little doubts do mighty trees spring. I can't improve on anything Tammy brought up. Getting Male Staff Member's attention and keeping him talking was a major coup.
It is truly sad that Tammy's daughter won't talk to her. She is just another road kill on the highway to Hubbard. And there are a lot of dead animals on that road.
Great job, Tammy! I have a feeling that the discomfort you felt during that 3 hour plane trip was NOTHING in comparison to the discomfort your seatmate felt and will feel...he has a bunch of missed withholds to deal with!
If he wasn't having doubts before, if he's honest with himself (and that's really difficult for a Scientologist because of the brainwashing), he WILL be more aware of his life and environment than EVER BEFORE.
Today, January 1st I want to publicly declare that after checking out many of the recent 'look back' links I have decided to actually make a New Year's resolution:
To become the Substack version of a Minnow Champion! 💪🏻
I would have told him pretty much everything that Tammy told him. Two important points that I would have emphasized for the reasons I left Scientology: 1) No type of therapy or counselling should ever cost anyone tens of thousands of dollars. 2) Staff members of any 'church' should never have to sign a minimum contract of two and a half years and work 7 days a week for little or no pay. Another main reason I left that I would have made clear to the man was the pressure and at times outright intimidation I experienced when they tried to recruit me for staff. I got involved in Scientology in 1981 and finally came to my senses and left in 1988. To this day I'm kicking myself for being involved for 7 years in this so called 'religion' that's nothing more than a money making and mind controlling cult. I should have realized much sooner when it was time to leave. Well done Tammy. There's a good chance that the seeds you planted will blossom into him becoming an ex Scientologist.
I’m not sure, honestly, how I would have handled that same situation. I would like to believe I would do the same. Ironically, given the goals of scientology, I am much less frightened of speaking my mind than I was when I was in scientology, and also more articulate and less judgmental. It would be so hard not to just scream “damnit wake up”, which would be the wrong thing to do.
Great job Tammy, I hope he sees the light and helps others to do the same. Kindness works wonders.
As a declared SP I would have lied about myself and been interested in finding out his history with Scientology. I would have let him “handle” me as a person who had seen many of the exposé materials.
I thought Tammy’s approach was good. I just have a different way of dealing with members of the cult if they don’t know me.
I’d never be able to pull that off. I have a terrible poker face.
Although I did find myself sitting next to Lance Miller on an airplane after NOLA Jazz Fest in 2019. I didn’t recognize him, but he was talking to my husband and told us he was the head Toastmaster. Never once in a 3 1/2 hour flight did he say he was a Scientologist. At one point I made a comment “speed of particle flow” and he had a physical reaction of stiffening up. I knew he knew that I was onto him, yet he didn’t say anything.
Later, when I got home I emailed him and told him I was a Scientologist, but not in good standing. His comment was “I thought so when you said speed of particle flow. However, I didn’t say anything because you never know which way that can go”. He was a nice guy too, but dripped of self-importance.
Fascinating occurrence by Tammy! I think you were amazing! I would have been flabbergasted and sputtered all of my angry feelings...I'm sometimes a "hothead." I once met a Scientologist at the airport going to an "org." I wasn't able to really talk to her. I was a volunteer there and it was inappropriate.
"......what would I have said instead or additional..."
I'd have asked him how he got in. And then ask questions like where's at on the Bridge, what courses, his family members in, and find out his predicament for when he sours on things, so as to suggest a few things:
a) When and if he does quit, "The Aftermath" foundation can be contacted for all sorts of things when one leaves Scientology today.
b) And if he leaves, tell him just look up the dozen or so "SPTV" channels for info and if he wishes to share recent info/history. Also contact this blog, Underground Bunker/Tony Ortega, for even giving up to date info while he's on his way out!
c) 3 hours is a long time, I'd personally have told him my beef spiritually with Scientology, just take the conversation into "spiritual" theory of Scientology versus say the Buddhist beliefs, since I'm studying Buddhism today.
d) I'd take up the long list of books, based on his predicaments and reading level, but he likely has no clue that there's been important books since the 1950s, on the basic problem society has with L. Ron Hubbard, and it's a problem that from the 1950s to today, is unchanged. Martin Gardner's "Fads and Fallacies...." book is very important to read over by ex's, and also even people in Scientology have never delved into the "negative" criticism which has held true against Hubbard, from the 1950s to now, merely on the "tech" stuff being not well received and specifically why (it gets into asking a person about their understanding of LRH's "tech" and see how well they know it, and are willing to start discussing the "basics" of Hubbard's spiritual beliefs). In 3 hours I could ask questions based on his answers, and steer the conversation into all of the great excellent points made since the 1950s to now, and do it nicely so as not to completey trounce his beliefs.
e) just let the conversation flop all over the place, tailor make it to him, show him his path out. (Even mention how LRH in KSW#1 gives the "...quit fast...." option, so when the time comes, he's within reason to "quit fast" and the Aftermath is there, for him.)
Chuck Beatty
ex Sea Org 75 to 03
PS: I forgot, I'd tell someone in, that when they do route out, DO NOT sign the legal agreements on the way out. Make up your mind to "change your religion" and stop being a Scientologist, or at least change your mind to only do Scientology with freer/splinter Scientologists, meaning you will be leaving as an SP. But DO NOT sign any stupid legal agreements for sure, on your way out. (He's already signed so many agreements already, which probably makes signing any more docs won't hurt him any worse than he's already signed himself into a corner with them. BUT the "big" thing, is DON"T sign their legal agreements, EVER.
I’ve found these various scenarios interesting. I’m glad Tony included the question in the story.
He knew Heber’s daughter-in-law, which led to telling him about Heber’s son, which let to telling him about Yvonne, Peter (who he heard of), Janis, Teri, Peter Jr.
I told him that Janis Gillham Grady wrote 2 books about the early days on the Apollo, etc. I told him her books were just her experience of being with LRH every day for many years and that she just tells the story without prejudice. I told him I learned more about LRH in those books than any SCN books.
Very good direction, the "Source briefing" information direction, I'd say what I was willing to read, also, was the "Ron's War history" stuff by Chris Owen, was the very first stuff I felt "okay" to read. Then I just jumped to others, like to Julie Mayo's/Gillespie's writings of why she was upset with how things went downhill at Int/Gillman Hot Springs when Qual Gold "executive C/Sing" messed up application of "correction" "tech" meaning Int Base staff no longer could give up listing and nulling answers that were correct for the staff member, but the answers were taken as out-ethics answers and the staff giving up the listing and nulling answer was then attacked in ethics for their answers. This is the crux of what is wrong.
In the outside world, it's one of the definitions of "politics", when people in a group are in the "wrong" compared to the rest of the group.
But Chris Owen's writings on LRH's war history were what I read first, then Julie's explanations of the outtech re listing and nulling tech at Int Base, which totally blows up people's "case" when a person can't give the "item" that suits them at that moment.
Then I read Kima Douglas' comments about how she and Mike Douglas had enough of LRH blaming them for things going "wrong" and the both quite suddenly. Kima and Mike were like what later Pat and Annie Broeker were, they were a pair of the top LRH entourage people close to him.
ALL people in LRH's top close to him entourage, all their stories are so helpful, and Janis Grady Gillham's material is exactly that type, and her stories fill in so many backhistory of the Sea Org.
I've learned since, how other CMO LRH Messengers even before Janis, had gone public, Doreen who married Janis' brother, Doe/Doreen was quoted in media when she first quit.
Also Tanya Burden even sued Scientology, Tanya was a bit of a loos cannon Messenger, not the wisest person, I had a run in with her, and I learned one didn't win counter attacking with policy a CMO Messenger, the rule was that while on duty and in good standing in the CMO, you cannot cross a messenger, you lose that battle, even if you present policy to show the Messenger is wrong. (You have to wait until that Messenger does themselves in, which Tanya eventually did, and later today, my conclusion of course is the Messengers were non stop put in untenable positions of being forced to execute Hubbard's untenable and even Hubbard's own cross policy orders, and thus staff refusing to execute a Messenger's order could be argued, and LRH even gave policy how to argue against it, but when a Messenger came to you to execute something directly by LRH, you kind of were in a bind as a staffer, you literally "had to do it" but that was the horrible predicament. Messengers from LRH put a person in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" predicament.
I came, finally, years later, to center all blame on Hubbard, he created his Messengers, who he sent out to execute things which were cross orders to his already issued policies, LOL. LRH was cross ordering his own policies, but to play the game, play along, you had to follow whatever was the immediate "command intention" orders from LRH. (Left behind today, is this Hubbard creation which itself perpetuates this "cross policy" ordering predicament, all the time, it's embedded in Scientology even today, it's not going away, it's too deeply embedded, the tangling cross Hubbard policy ordering, Hubbard is at bottom to blame for this today.)
So, anyway, for ex's, or people who are out and wishing to read closer to "Source", for SURE, read all of the material from those around LRH, to see how they dealt with LRH the Commodore.
It's "Source Briefing" level valid material to take up with Scientologists.
They do wish to know the details of "Source's" life, and especially all the people who were "directly on LRH's lines" all their history behind the scenes explanations are so important to the full picture of LRH.
So, your overall point, chat with existing Scientologists about LRH's personal history with his entourage/Messengers and others "directly on his line" executing things daily for him, all his final year, is for sure of high interest and good material to discuss with existing Scientologists!
My first intro to looking at the internet came from a suggestion from Eileen Clark. She told me about the Saint Petersburg Times article. However, I didn’t look much further than Marty’s site. Then in 2012 I heard about Debbie Cook’s email. I was still of the opinion that the issue was DM and not the tech. I’m not like Chris Shelton who jumped ship and began speaking out right away. It wasn’t until after I started talking with Chris that my eyes were opened. My road out has been very gradual. It’s a relief to not be under the radar anymore, knowing that I never have to pick up the cans or be under their control.
I’m amazed that any of the CMO messengers turned out sane at all, but mostly impressed with what Janis has done to educate people about the history.
Yes. Julie was Apollo era staff, she'd risen to CS-4 (Commodore's Staff Aide for Division 4) in the pre Exec Strata/WDC management setup.
She married David I think after both had quit official Scientology.
She worked somehow on auditing or C/Sing lines at Int Base, Gillman Hot Springs, and if you know listing and nulling, especially the Seach and Discovery listing and nulling, or the PTS Rundown SP listing and nulling variations which are done, the person is supposed to be allowed to give what they consider 'their item' which sometimes would be the name of an executive on staff above them who is harassing or messing with them. The rules are you allow the person to give up "items" which bring them relief, the whole purpose.
But Julie explained several people gave up Misavige's name as being their "SP" so that didn't fly well, LOL.
Anyways, the Hubbard setup is a mess, best to just skip it all, never do it, and if you must learn about it, then just read the "commands" of the quackery and imagine what that will do to your mind, good or bad.
I was Sea Org Dec 75 til March 03, and I lived through the old management to new management transition, and it was disheartening, but a reality, that almost ALL managers eventually quit, the Hubbard system just pits everyone against one another, finding one another as the reasons things aren't going well. Staff always get directed by the Hubbard regulations to blame each other, and never blame Hubbard's quackery as the bottom level problem.
Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, can't name "white hats" as your item...but that's another reference that I'm thankful I can't remember the name of. One of those times where having a bad memory works in my favor.
Great efforts here. Thanks to her and you, Tony. Anyway, I loved the False Purpose Rundown when I received it in the independent field a couple of months ago.
“I didn’t just plant seeds, I planted trees,” she says." But did Male Staff Member climb that tree? Either way, Tammy did plant something and maybe he will look at some of the info Tammy gave him. From little doubts do mighty trees spring. I can't improve on anything Tammy brought up. Getting Male Staff Member's attention and keeping him talking was a major coup.
It is truly sad that Tammy's daughter won't talk to her. She is just another road kill on the highway to Hubbard. And there are a lot of dead animals on that road.
He sounded genuinely surprised about what she had to do in order to leave work to go give birth to her child.
Great job, Tammy! I have a feeling that the discomfort you felt during that 3 hour plane trip was NOTHING in comparison to the discomfort your seatmate felt and will feel...he has a bunch of missed withholds to deal with!
If he wasn't having doubts before, if he's honest with himself (and that's really difficult for a Scientologist because of the brainwashing), he WILL be more aware of his life and environment than EVER BEFORE.
Good on ya!
What a fascinating read.... hope those seeds grow into mighty redwoods then a huge forest of ex-Scientologists! Good for you, Tammy! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Well done. I would’ve done the same thing. Good on you Tammy! 👍
happy new year tony and all the readers!
Happy New Year to all
Today, January 1st I want to publicly declare that after checking out many of the recent 'look back' links I have decided to actually make a New Year's resolution:
To become the Substack version of a Minnow Champion! 💪🏻
I would have told him pretty much everything that Tammy told him. Two important points that I would have emphasized for the reasons I left Scientology: 1) No type of therapy or counselling should ever cost anyone tens of thousands of dollars. 2) Staff members of any 'church' should never have to sign a minimum contract of two and a half years and work 7 days a week for little or no pay. Another main reason I left that I would have made clear to the man was the pressure and at times outright intimidation I experienced when they tried to recruit me for staff. I got involved in Scientology in 1981 and finally came to my senses and left in 1988. To this day I'm kicking myself for being involved for 7 years in this so called 'religion' that's nothing more than a money making and mind controlling cult. I should have realized much sooner when it was time to leave. Well done Tammy. There's a good chance that the seeds you planted will blossom into him becoming an ex Scientologist.
I would welcome him. He was a super nice guy.
I’m not sure, honestly, how I would have handled that same situation. I would like to believe I would do the same. Ironically, given the goals of scientology, I am much less frightened of speaking my mind than I was when I was in scientology, and also more articulate and less judgmental. It would be so hard not to just scream “damnit wake up”, which would be the wrong thing to do.
Great job Tammy, I hope he sees the light and helps others to do the same. Kindness works wonders.
As a declared SP I would have lied about myself and been interested in finding out his history with Scientology. I would have let him “handle” me as a person who had seen many of the exposé materials.
I thought Tammy’s approach was good. I just have a different way of dealing with members of the cult if they don’t know me.
I’d never be able to pull that off. I have a terrible poker face.
Although I did find myself sitting next to Lance Miller on an airplane after NOLA Jazz Fest in 2019. I didn’t recognize him, but he was talking to my husband and told us he was the head Toastmaster. Never once in a 3 1/2 hour flight did he say he was a Scientologist. At one point I made a comment “speed of particle flow” and he had a physical reaction of stiffening up. I knew he knew that I was onto him, yet he didn’t say anything.
Later, when I got home I emailed him and told him I was a Scientologist, but not in good standing. His comment was “I thought so when you said speed of particle flow. However, I didn’t say anything because you never know which way that can go”. He was a nice guy too, but dripped of self-importance.
Fascinating occurrence by Tammy! I think you were amazing! I would have been flabbergasted and sputtered all of my angry feelings...I'm sometimes a "hothead." I once met a Scientologist at the airport going to an "org." I wasn't able to really talk to her. I was a volunteer there and it was inappropriate.
"......what would I have said instead or additional..."
I'd have asked him how he got in. And then ask questions like where's at on the Bridge, what courses, his family members in, and find out his predicament for when he sours on things, so as to suggest a few things:
a) When and if he does quit, "The Aftermath" foundation can be contacted for all sorts of things when one leaves Scientology today.
b) And if he leaves, tell him just look up the dozen or so "SPTV" channels for info and if he wishes to share recent info/history. Also contact this blog, Underground Bunker/Tony Ortega, for even giving up to date info while he's on his way out!
c) 3 hours is a long time, I'd personally have told him my beef spiritually with Scientology, just take the conversation into "spiritual" theory of Scientology versus say the Buddhist beliefs, since I'm studying Buddhism today.
d) I'd take up the long list of books, based on his predicaments and reading level, but he likely has no clue that there's been important books since the 1950s, on the basic problem society has with L. Ron Hubbard, and it's a problem that from the 1950s to today, is unchanged. Martin Gardner's "Fads and Fallacies...." book is very important to read over by ex's, and also even people in Scientology have never delved into the "negative" criticism which has held true against Hubbard, from the 1950s to now, merely on the "tech" stuff being not well received and specifically why (it gets into asking a person about their understanding of LRH's "tech" and see how well they know it, and are willing to start discussing the "basics" of Hubbard's spiritual beliefs). In 3 hours I could ask questions based on his answers, and steer the conversation into all of the great excellent points made since the 1950s to now, and do it nicely so as not to completey trounce his beliefs.
e) just let the conversation flop all over the place, tailor make it to him, show him his path out. (Even mention how LRH in KSW#1 gives the "...quit fast...." option, so when the time comes, he's within reason to "quit fast" and the Aftermath is there, for him.)
Chuck Beatty
ex Sea Org 75 to 03
PS: I forgot, I'd tell someone in, that when they do route out, DO NOT sign the legal agreements on the way out. Make up your mind to "change your religion" and stop being a Scientologist, or at least change your mind to only do Scientology with freer/splinter Scientologists, meaning you will be leaving as an SP. But DO NOT sign any stupid legal agreements for sure, on your way out. (He's already signed so many agreements already, which probably makes signing any more docs won't hurt him any worse than he's already signed himself into a corner with them. BUT the "big" thing, is DON"T sign their legal agreements, EVER.
I’ve found these various scenarios interesting. I’m glad Tony included the question in the story.
He knew Heber’s daughter-in-law, which led to telling him about Heber’s son, which let to telling him about Yvonne, Peter (who he heard of), Janis, Teri, Peter Jr.
I told him that Janis Gillham Grady wrote 2 books about the early days on the Apollo, etc. I told him her books were just her experience of being with LRH every day for many years and that she just tells the story without prejudice. I told him I learned more about LRH in those books than any SCN books.
Very good direction, the "Source briefing" information direction, I'd say what I was willing to read, also, was the "Ron's War history" stuff by Chris Owen, was the very first stuff I felt "okay" to read. Then I just jumped to others, like to Julie Mayo's/Gillespie's writings of why she was upset with how things went downhill at Int/Gillman Hot Springs when Qual Gold "executive C/Sing" messed up application of "correction" "tech" meaning Int Base staff no longer could give up listing and nulling answers that were correct for the staff member, but the answers were taken as out-ethics answers and the staff giving up the listing and nulling answer was then attacked in ethics for their answers. This is the crux of what is wrong.
In the outside world, it's one of the definitions of "politics", when people in a group are in the "wrong" compared to the rest of the group.
But Chris Owen's writings on LRH's war history were what I read first, then Julie's explanations of the outtech re listing and nulling tech at Int Base, which totally blows up people's "case" when a person can't give the "item" that suits them at that moment.
Then I read Kima Douglas' comments about how she and Mike Douglas had enough of LRH blaming them for things going "wrong" and the both quite suddenly. Kima and Mike were like what later Pat and Annie Broeker were, they were a pair of the top LRH entourage people close to him.
ALL people in LRH's top close to him entourage, all their stories are so helpful, and Janis Grady Gillham's material is exactly that type, and her stories fill in so many backhistory of the Sea Org.
I've learned since, how other CMO LRH Messengers even before Janis, had gone public, Doreen who married Janis' brother, Doe/Doreen was quoted in media when she first quit.
Also Tanya Burden even sued Scientology, Tanya was a bit of a loos cannon Messenger, not the wisest person, I had a run in with her, and I learned one didn't win counter attacking with policy a CMO Messenger, the rule was that while on duty and in good standing in the CMO, you cannot cross a messenger, you lose that battle, even if you present policy to show the Messenger is wrong. (You have to wait until that Messenger does themselves in, which Tanya eventually did, and later today, my conclusion of course is the Messengers were non stop put in untenable positions of being forced to execute Hubbard's untenable and even Hubbard's own cross policy orders, and thus staff refusing to execute a Messenger's order could be argued, and LRH even gave policy how to argue against it, but when a Messenger came to you to execute something directly by LRH, you kind of were in a bind as a staffer, you literally "had to do it" but that was the horrible predicament. Messengers from LRH put a person in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" predicament.
I came, finally, years later, to center all blame on Hubbard, he created his Messengers, who he sent out to execute things which were cross orders to his already issued policies, LOL. LRH was cross ordering his own policies, but to play the game, play along, you had to follow whatever was the immediate "command intention" orders from LRH. (Left behind today, is this Hubbard creation which itself perpetuates this "cross policy" ordering predicament, all the time, it's embedded in Scientology even today, it's not going away, it's too deeply embedded, the tangling cross Hubbard policy ordering, Hubbard is at bottom to blame for this today.)
So, anyway, for ex's, or people who are out and wishing to read closer to "Source", for SURE, read all of the material from those around LRH, to see how they dealt with LRH the Commodore.
It's "Source Briefing" level valid material to take up with Scientologists.
They do wish to know the details of "Source's" life, and especially all the people who were "directly on LRH's lines" all their history behind the scenes explanations are so important to the full picture of LRH.
So, your overall point, chat with existing Scientologists about LRH's personal history with his entourage/Messengers and others "directly on his line" executing things daily for him, all his final year, is for sure of high interest and good material to discuss with existing Scientologists!
Super well done, LOL.
My first intro to looking at the internet came from a suggestion from Eileen Clark. She told me about the Saint Petersburg Times article. However, I didn’t look much further than Marty’s site. Then in 2012 I heard about Debbie Cook’s email. I was still of the opinion that the issue was DM and not the tech. I’m not like Chris Shelton who jumped ship and began speaking out right away. It wasn’t until after I started talking with Chris that my eyes were opened. My road out has been very gradual. It’s a relief to not be under the radar anymore, knowing that I never have to pick up the cans or be under their control.
I’m amazed that any of the CMO messengers turned out sane at all, but mostly impressed with what Janis has done to educate people about the history.
I don’t know who Julie Mayo's/Gillespie's is or her story. Is that David Mayo’s wife?
Yes. Julie was Apollo era staff, she'd risen to CS-4 (Commodore's Staff Aide for Division 4) in the pre Exec Strata/WDC management setup.
She married David I think after both had quit official Scientology.
She worked somehow on auditing or C/Sing lines at Int Base, Gillman Hot Springs, and if you know listing and nulling, especially the Seach and Discovery listing and nulling, or the PTS Rundown SP listing and nulling variations which are done, the person is supposed to be allowed to give what they consider 'their item' which sometimes would be the name of an executive on staff above them who is harassing or messing with them. The rules are you allow the person to give up "items" which bring them relief, the whole purpose.
But Julie explained several people gave up Misavige's name as being their "SP" so that didn't fly well, LOL.
Anyways, the Hubbard setup is a mess, best to just skip it all, never do it, and if you must learn about it, then just read the "commands" of the quackery and imagine what that will do to your mind, good or bad.
I was Sea Org Dec 75 til March 03, and I lived through the old management to new management transition, and it was disheartening, but a reality, that almost ALL managers eventually quit, the Hubbard system just pits everyone against one another, finding one another as the reasons things aren't going well. Staff always get directed by the Hubbard regulations to blame each other, and never blame Hubbard's quackery as the bottom level problem.
Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, can't name "white hats" as your item...but that's another reference that I'm thankful I can't remember the name of. One of those times where having a bad memory works in my favor.
Wonderful article, Tammy and Tony. Thanks
Great efforts here. Thanks to her and you, Tony. Anyway, I loved the False Purpose Rundown when I received it in the independent field a couple of months ago.