Before the verdict comes in and you get inundated with messages, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for ALL of your hard work and efforts during this crazy trial. You made us all feel like we were right there with you in the courtroom. We felt your passions and frustrations. You worked so very hard keeping us informed with your daily emails and videos. You have been fair and professional while being compassionate and caring. We're going to miss you saying "Underground Bunker" from the court house (and one bar) and look forward to reading future postings and your wonderful podcasts about Scientology.
You need to do a full article showing each one of Cohen's outfits. He's taken the time to dress up to the nines, and we want to see for ourselves all of his splendor
As was mentioned by Tony, this is a very diverse jury coming from different backgrounds, ages , and gender. Each hears the info through their own lens. Coming to a consensus will be difficult because there are three different charges, and a standard or forcible rape vs. rape alone. The fact they are taking their time shows their sincerity to get it right. Many took lots of notes, and they are taking their role seriously. Whatever their decision, we should be grateful that this jury is clearly determined to do the right thing.
Thank you for covering this trial. I admire everyone who has left (escaped) Scientology, the unjust treatment of people is scary. And the way they handle legal issues, especially in regards to abuse is terrifying. Keep up the great work, My heart goes out to these women, what they are doing is incredibly inspiring. I just pray justice is done for them.
The judge should have said more than "The attorneys' closing arguments are not evidence, and any demonstrative charts not previously entered are not evidence."
The jury's question referred to the following 5-paragraph statement in Cohen's closing:
"In talking about this concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (Shows a chart) It goes through the stages about how you're feeling about the evidence in this case.
It goes from the bottom, proven not guilty. And remember, Ms. Goldstein and I could have done nothing and not asked a single question. The presumption of innocence starts there. And it goes up the ladder. He may be guilty, maybe not. If that's the mindset, it's not even close to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
You then work your way up the ladder. You think he may be guilty. The women took the stand, they all said he raped them. I think he maybe, possibly may be guilty. You know that requires? A not guilty verdict.
Up the ladder: He's probably guilty. But that means nothing. Up the ladder. His guilt is highly likely. Again, that requires a not guilty verdict.
It is only if you get to an abiding conviction, the most compelling, the most thorough feeling I could have, that that man is guilty is of what he's charged that -- that, and only that, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Regardless of what you may think of anyone in this trial."
The judge should have said something on the order of... "The defense attorney outlined "stages" of guilt which are NOT recognized by this or any other court. These are the "opinions" of the defense attorney, solely, and are not to be considered evidence, a gauge of evidence, or a degree of the defendant's guilt."
Agreed. This is unnerving. Ugh! At first I thought, “Okay, if they’re mentioning “any degree” of guilt, it’s still guilt so it’s encouraging. But now I’m rethinking that. There’s just no way that they can find him innocent of so many charges! I’ll be stunned and so incredibly disappointed.
I actually thought asking about the degree of guilt would mean they are in agreement to his guilt on some level. Who knows though. I thought the prosecutor supplied a lot of evidence in this case and the defense didn’t really do much. I would be shocked if they find him innocent. I’ve been wrong before though.
In regards to this, an attorney on the main tonyortega.org website commented: "Standard burden of proof stuff, not indicative of much." He also said: "Juries think everything is evidence. They're not appellate judges." Fortunately, Olmedo was there to knock it down.
As it relates to Olmedo rejecting the jurors, in formulating her response, I suppose this could possibly be taken as a bit of a positive sign from the article:
"Cohen registers an objection, saying that part of her response is redundant, but Mueller likes her version and she sticks with it."
No problem. I completely understand. This worried me as well at first, but we’re fortunate to have an attorney (and a couple others) in the comment section over there to calm us down when we start worrying like I did when Tony dropped that exchange.
I ughed at that question. Not a good question. I really hope I’m wrong but it looks like Danny might slime his way out of this. I sincerely hope enough people have paid attention to this case that even if he skates, his career is over.
Before the verdict comes in and you get inundated with messages, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for ALL of your hard work and efforts during this crazy trial. You made us all feel like we were right there with you in the courtroom. We felt your passions and frustrations. You worked so very hard keeping us informed with your daily emails and videos. You have been fair and professional while being compassionate and caring. We're going to miss you saying "Underground Bunker" from the court house (and one bar) and look forward to reading future postings and your wonderful podcasts about Scientology.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
Ditto!
I love that you got the other journalists on-board as fashion critics! 😂
You need to do a full article showing each one of Cohen's outfits. He's taken the time to dress up to the nines, and we want to see for ourselves all of his splendor
Thank you for the update!
Same
As was mentioned by Tony, this is a very diverse jury coming from different backgrounds, ages , and gender. Each hears the info through their own lens. Coming to a consensus will be difficult because there are three different charges, and a standard or forcible rape vs. rape alone. The fact they are taking their time shows their sincerity to get it right. Many took lots of notes, and they are taking their role seriously. Whatever their decision, we should be grateful that this jury is clearly determined to do the right thing.
I just had a scary thought. If he is convicted, can he appeal immediately and be out on bail??
Thank you 🙏
Thank you for covering this trial. I admire everyone who has left (escaped) Scientology, the unjust treatment of people is scary. And the way they handle legal issues, especially in regards to abuse is terrifying. Keep up the great work, My heart goes out to these women, what they are doing is incredibly inspiring. I just pray justice is done for them.
The judge should have said more than "The attorneys' closing arguments are not evidence, and any demonstrative charts not previously entered are not evidence."
The jury's question referred to the following 5-paragraph statement in Cohen's closing:
"In talking about this concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. (Shows a chart) It goes through the stages about how you're feeling about the evidence in this case.
It goes from the bottom, proven not guilty. And remember, Ms. Goldstein and I could have done nothing and not asked a single question. The presumption of innocence starts there. And it goes up the ladder. He may be guilty, maybe not. If that's the mindset, it's not even close to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
You then work your way up the ladder. You think he may be guilty. The women took the stand, they all said he raped them. I think he maybe, possibly may be guilty. You know that requires? A not guilty verdict.
Up the ladder: He's probably guilty. But that means nothing. Up the ladder. His guilt is highly likely. Again, that requires a not guilty verdict.
It is only if you get to an abiding conviction, the most compelling, the most thorough feeling I could have, that that man is guilty is of what he's charged that -- that, and only that, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Regardless of what you may think of anyone in this trial."
The judge should have said something on the order of... "The defense attorney outlined "stages" of guilt which are NOT recognized by this or any other court. These are the "opinions" of the defense attorney, solely, and are not to be considered evidence, a gauge of evidence, or a degree of the defendant's guilt."
time to put a pot of tea on
Agreed. This is unnerving. Ugh! At first I thought, “Okay, if they’re mentioning “any degree” of guilt, it’s still guilt so it’s encouraging. But now I’m rethinking that. There’s just no way that they can find him innocent of so many charges! I’ll be stunned and so incredibly disappointed.
I actually thought asking about the degree of guilt would mean they are in agreement to his guilt on some level. Who knows though. I thought the prosecutor supplied a lot of evidence in this case and the defense didn’t really do much. I would be shocked if they find him innocent. I’ve been wrong before though.
That was my initial thought as well. But who knows. Praying that justice is served.
In regards to this, an attorney on the main tonyortega.org website commented: "Standard burden of proof stuff, not indicative of much." He also said: "Juries think everything is evidence. They're not appellate judges." Fortunately, Olmedo was there to knock it down.
As it relates to Olmedo rejecting the jurors, in formulating her response, I suppose this could possibly be taken as a bit of a positive sign from the article:
"Cohen registers an objection, saying that part of her response is redundant, but Mueller likes her version and she sticks with it."
No problem. I completely understand. This worried me as well at first, but we’re fortunate to have an attorney (and a couple others) in the comment section over there to calm us down when we start worrying like I did when Tony dropped that exchange.
I ughed at that question. Not a good question. I really hope I’m wrong but it looks like Danny might slime his way out of this. I sincerely hope enough people have paid attention to this case that even if he skates, his career is over.
It scared me too. My stomach is in knots!